How could people tolerate a rapist being in such a Nepali conference? Either boycott the conference, where rapists like Ajay Kumar Dev are the members and terrorists like NEPE are giving some talk or, Just thrash these people out of the convention and make the convention enjoyable and knowledgeful. Whats your say guys?

Sidster, we did look into that scenario.  Problem being, even if it was consensual, sex with a minor is still illegal.  Based on the evidence, we did not find that it was consensual at any time.  He was charged with rape and rape of a minor until her 18th birthday.  After that, it was just rape charges and sexual assault charges and the minor issue was out of the picture.

I would have to agree that the crime of sex with a minor is clear as water in Ajay's case from that taped phone call alone.

But it does create a doubt whether it was a RAPE or not. After reading all those comments it is clear that there was sex between the two but its not clear whether it was Rape or not. I hope the judge looks into this before he decides on 70 - 250 years of prison. It would only be fair to be punished for the crime committed and not the fabricated ones.

Sid

Sidster,

If you could see how devastated the victim was over the whole situation, if you could see how hard she cried, and how humiliated and exposed she felt... She is utterly incapable of lying or manipulating another person, and even after Ajay's conviction, she felt terrible that a son would most likely have to grow up knowing that his father was a convicted rapist.  Even though she knew that the well-being of the child was not her responsibility but rather that of his irresponsible parents, she still worried about him.  If anything, her reaction showed that she, despite the horrible things her adoptive father put her through, is a very compassionate person.  Throughout the trial, she never had anything bad to say about Ajay or Peggy, or even their families, even though they caused her so much suffering.   Multiple times, many of her friends (myself, included), voiced our opinions about Ajay.  We all thought that he deserved to rot in hell for all eternity, and we called him every terrible name in the English language we could possibly think of... But, not the victim.  The only thing she ever said was something along the lines of, "I'm relieved that I got justice for the horrible things that he did to me, but I don't take pleasure from it.  Both of our families were destroyed by what he did." 

The sad truth with many rape victims is that they feel like they could have prevented the attacks if they had done something different, if they had covered themselves up literally with clothing from head to toe, or if they'd been a better person.  They feel like they were punished for something that they did wrong, and yet, they can't figure out what their transgression was.  Could you imagine feeling this way?  The fact that this victim has a hard time blaming anyone but herself is a classic sign that she, indeed, has been raped.  It also says something about extremely patriarchal societies where women are seen as nothing more than chattel.  I am not here to debate the intricacies of racism, but it is a very well-known fact that, in many Asian cultures (especially in the rural areas of countries such as Nepal), women are seen as little more than farm animals--completely utilitarian baby-making machines with no real capacity for intelligent thoughts.  Again, I'm not creating a bias in saying this.  I know that some form of this male chauvinistic thinking exists even here in America, among Caucasian males, but it seems more prevalent in countries who perpetuate the need for said patriarchal communities. 

I firmly believe that the lesson to be taken from this tragic story is to take in as much information as humanly possible.  Start with the facts, and only the facts, and refrain from jumping to conclusions, assumptions, or emotions.  Perhaps if many of Ajay's supporters had read up on the behaviors and emotions of rape victims, they would have been a little more cognizant of what was going on right under their noses.  

Incestuous sex (haad-naataako karani) is one of the major crimes in Nepal, and so if this man slept with his daughter, then it is a very sick story. 18 or not. All I am asking is if there is a definitive proof of this. The more heinous a crime a man is convicted of, the more concrete a proof is require to do so.

Regarding rape: I am surprised that there are some rapes that seemed to have occured after she was 18. I wonder why she didn't report them as soon as it happened? To say that repeated rape couldnot be the last straw but a break up with the boyfriend was doesn't sound cogent to me.

Allysma, you also give me an impression that you are not sure how much time he is being asked to serve. I am surprised that the jurors didn't know the consequence of their action (decision). Bigger question is: would you think 160 years in prison (a mean between floated numbers, 70 and 250) is fair for this guy? Given Madoff, who ruined so many hospitals/retirees and destroyed a system, was given 150. What is exactly the goal of a jail system? To reform a man so that he won't be a threat to the society when he comes back or let him rot there forever so that he never comes back? Are jurors setting precedence or do they have precedence for such crime and punishment?

Isaac,

".. in many Asian cultures (especially in the rural areas of countries such as Nepal), women are seen as little more than farm animals--completely utilitarian baby-making machines with no real capacity for intelligent thoughts."

In Nepal, women are treated badly, no defending that, but it has been like that in all societies including American and European. I wonder how many women in American Deep South work now (most of them I met were not working)? When Andrew Jackson asked for equality among all , he was asking for white men--not women, not black male-- and it has been somewhat like that until very recently . But societies are transforming, and currently, Nepal has more women parliamentarians than the USA.

In Nepal--women are actually worshipped too, no? You can't even kill female animal. I have been struck by the narration of war during Nepal's unification era:  Nepali soldiers never killed women or cows or a child according to a report and in fact, they prided in defending them. when Moslems attacked India, they raped women discriminately and targetted children born from them for conversion. When Christians invaded USA, they killed women and children of Red Indians. Women were not spared in notorious holocaust. White women never had it easy; they were accused of being witches and burnt in Europe and America. They started to get jobs only after labor shortage of industrial societies, and even now, their is wage differential. So all societies have their bias against women. If you think Asians can be particularly viewed as such, perhaps you need to disabuse yourself.

Issac,

Thank You...for being honest.

Pire,

Where are you going?

Isaac,

".. in many Asian cultures (especially in
the rural areas of countries such as Nepal), women are seen as little
more than farm animals--completely utilitarian baby-making machines
with no real capacity for intelligent thoughts."

I hope you were not in the Jury. I can see where someone with this kind of prejudice in their head can sway their vote to. I am sure if it was a white male on trial you would not have had this prejudice in your head. 

I am not saying who is innocent or guilty here but shame on your hypocritical comment on Asian society and culture. You know India had a female head of the Nation about 35 years ago and your precious USA is almost 40 years away from electing a female head of the state. Yes women have more liberty here but also more women are punched in the face here more than anywhere else.

Ajay, came to this country when was 13, he is more American than anything else, do not dare to push him towards the Asian culture, He is your alike. Only Nepali on him is the color of his skin and his association to Nepalese Community Organization. You are one narrow minded frog in a well. All you know is the well you are in and nothing more.

If Ajay had won a gold medal for you, you would have proudly called him American. Accept it, he is an American just like you are.

Talk about what he should be punished for regardless of his culture and background.

Sid

Pire, if you had bothered to read my comment thoroughly, you would have noticed that I brought up the fact that such negative beliefs concerning women exist even here in America, even by Caucasian individuals.  Like I said before, I am not here to extol the virtues of one culture by defaming another.  I am simply stating the facts.  And the simple fact is that, in a lot of Asian countries, women are not held in high esteem within these patriarchal societies, and they do not have the legal protections that we have here in the U.S.  Too often, we hear horror stories of women beaten to death, sold into prostitution, or raped repeatedly with the transgressor never being punished.  Here in America, we do not have as many of these travesties, and those that do occur are not covered up.  It is true that our legal system is not friendly to those who file rape cases.  Have you seen the statistics for how many rape cases actually go to trial?  How about how many individuals guilty of rape actually are incarcerated?  You can then imagine how amazing it is that this particular rape case concerning my friend 1.) had its day in court, and 2.) resulted in the rapist going to jail.

  It is true that some cultures refrain from harming women and children during warfare, and we should commend those who uphold those standards.  However, there are plenty of people regardless of their cultural background who disregard the standards that they were raised with, and kill whomever is in their path.  You must realize, however, that we are digressing by bringing this up. 

Oh, and FYI, I'm of Asian descent.  But, thank you for jumping to assumptions... Clearly my message about sticking to the facts went unnoticed. 

Isaac,

If you think Caucasians are not any better than Asian, then there is no point in pointing finger at Asian societies, and trying to make this farcical differentiation. Asia, btw, is big enough to have a spectrum of attitude towards female--look at Moslems, Chinese and Us and you know what I mean. So your statement was either a tautology or plainly meaningless. Sure, it is easy to file a rape case here, but we don't have wage differentiation in Nepal, and female college graduates are more than half of a graduating class in China. And of course, our recent 33% female parliamentarian provision in Nepal makes us ahead of America in granting rights to women. But these are not excuse for status quo-- If I have my way, I will definitely work for more power for women. What bothered me about your statement is its vacuousness or its attempt to make comparison that is plainly wrong.

Now, your statement about victim's emotions during the court trial made me sympathize with the victim. But at the same time, dont' get me wrong here,  precisely because some of us were not there at the time and were spared histrionics of court proceeding, we can see clearly as we can have the perspective from distance. I don't want to be bothered by how Peggy cried, how Ajay asserted his innocence or how Ajay's father begged for mercy or so on (they may or may not have done). Let's see if justice is done. Were there facts? Is the sentence condign? And so on. I was shocked by one fact: that the jury sentenced this man on the basis of one statement as someone said earlier (otherwise it would have been a hung jury, according to him/her), and that rape was proved without any concrete evidence and a man was sent to jail for several lifetimes in absence of concrete evidence. But this is such a sick story from the beginning-a father forcing himself upon his daughter-that I don't think any of us would really want to expose ourselves trying to save the guy. It is the benefit of unanimity and the presence of one of the jurors in this forum that has provided us an opportunity to peer into decision making process of American court system.

 

Sidster ley hasayo,

"I am not saying who is innocent or guilty here but shame on your hypocritical comment on Asian society and culture. You know India had a female head of the Nation about 35 years ago and your precious USA is almost 40 years away from electing a female head of the state. Yes women have more liberty here but also more women are punched in the face here more than anywhere else." ammai nee..

Sidster..you are full of shit. So what, if India had a female prime minister about 35 years ago, they still burn women for dowry. Dude, accept the fact that women are treated like shit in countries like Nepal and India.

Or could be.. you have never gone out of Kathmandu valley to realize how bad women are treated in rural areas.

Av,

If you want to argue on women rights on USA vs Nepal, please create another thread and i will fully express my views there. Yes there are cases of women getting burnt down for dowry, witches, and other stupidity. Those things are all over the world. When things turn downhill women, children, and other vulnerables are the ones to suffer. Yes in Asian and African countries it appears that women and children are suffering more but along with women and children other weaker men are suffering as well. We saw the same thing happening here in " New Orleans" . We saw how long it took for a 200 years civilization to disappear with one storm.

If you haven't noticed, RIGHTS only works when the stomach is FULL. In countries with less FOOD there is less RIGHTS for all of its country men. It happens that Stronger Men claim more rights than weaker men, women, and children.

And yes i have traveled to rural Nepal. And yes i have seen wife beaters in Nepal, but majority of women ruled their houses and their men, some rural woman even beat their husbands with a log    "Daura".

But my argument is not about women right. I have an issue with the American who takes a shelter of a Nepali Stereotype to punish an American.

Sid

Sid,

You still refuse to acknowledge that this man is harbored under a Nepali community, and that the household that he grew up in was fully Nepali.  Just because someone comes to America, takes our citizenship tests, and passes does not mean that he sheds his background, or that his family refuses the culture that they grew up with.  He is, underneath the American facade, a Nepali man.  It is shameful that he has put a black mark on your culture simply because of his association with one Nepali community.  I believe that we all acknowledge that his transgressions do not define the Nepali culture as a whole. 
This man was raised in a traditional Nepali household--he was the eldest son in his family, and was treated like a prince.  His parents doted on him and gave him whatever he wished.  Perhaps they created a monster when they gave in to his every whim and fancy, but we don't know for sure and so should not blame the parents (although, my impression of them has always been that they're disdainful, arrogant, individuals, and that the mother was psychotic and threatened to kill the victim on multiple occasions).  What we do know is that he has an overwhelming sense of entitlement to everything and everyone.  His behavior has shown us this much. 
It is a shame that he is associated with Nepal in any way, especially since I have learned from the victim how beautiful the culture is, and how delicious the food is! 

Going back to this whole new issue of womens rights in one country vs. another... It is well-documented in multiple history books that women of Muslim, Chinese, and even European cultures have all felt the heavy hand of oppression.  Pire is correct in saying that there is a wide spectrum in how women are treated across the continent of Asia, but we are talking solely about the instances of abuse due to the presence of extremely patriarchal societies.  In Muslim countries, women are expected to walk X number of steps behind their husband in order to show respect to said husbands, and "honor" killings are perfectly acceptable.  In China, female infants were either killed or sent to orphanages because families felt that they were useless and sometimes even shameful.  U.S. females have also had their share of unfair treatment, but we have never condoned violence toward women for any reason.  It is sad that it does happen (in redneck parts of town as much as in cities with much affluence), but again, such behaviors are utterly unacceptable.  However, it seems as though most countries are moving further and further away from these archaic ideals, and I, as a female, could not be happier. 

My contention with the Nepali culture lies in the fact that it is a culture built upon the design of the Hindu patriarchal system.  I have no qualms with Hinduism, but any culture that believes that men should be at the forefront of anything and everything important gives me a very uneasy feeling to my stomach, especially since these ideals can always be used to take advantage of the powerlessness of females.  In fact, my contention lies with any patriarchal society, which is a hard thing to deal with, especially considering that so many cultures are shaped around the man as the head of the household.  Once we remove this aspect from our cultures, we will have a more impartial environment, regardless of our sex.

P.S.  Please make sure you know exactly where I'm coming from before you decide to attack me with meaningless phrases.

Pire, I am curious to know what your take is on this news article that I came upon...

http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/20773/

I know nothing of the goings on in Nepal, so perhaps you could shed some light on why womens rights activists are trying to be silenced despite your claims that women have all the rights they need?

Isaac,

You seriously need to do more study before you call Nepali culture a Hindu patriarchal system. I was born as a Hindu but i have switched my religion to the new religion called LOGIC once i hit the age of reasoning.

Hindu religion has nothing to do with the the patriarchal system that is seen in Nepal. I know Hindu religion has sometimes referred Men as the Gods for the women to worship for but the religion also has referred women, children, plants, animals, rocks, water, air and bunch of other things as gods for others to worship.

I lived in Nepal long enough and did not encounter one father who saw their daughter as a farm animal just for the purpose of baby making machine. The idea of incest was born in the WEST, so as sex with animals and objects.

And do more research, out of all the religions out there you will see that Hinduism is the religion that respects women the most than anyone else. Only in Hinduism the goddess of wisdom, power, wealth is a female.

You are connecting the misery and chaos brought by poverty and lack of information with Women Rights. Shame on you if this was your basis for your verdict.

".. in many Asian cultures (especially in
the rural areas of countries such as Nepal), women are seen as little
more than farm animals--completely utilitarian baby-making machines
with no real capacity for intelligent thoughts."

"My contention with the Nepali culture lies in the fact that it is a culture built upon the design of the Hindu patriarchal system..."

 

Isaac, I am shocked. Now, don't tell me you were in jury. This is exactly what I thought juries thought about..the Hindu, the Hindu culture, that must be bad and it might have influenced their decision.

 Hindus don't condone violence on women. I always find them comparatively ahead of others (only 60 years ago, warriors of certain religion in Europe burnt women and children , who believed in another religion, alive in holocaust something you would not find in Nepal). Violence on women are universal. Bias on them are universal, but Nepal may be inching well ahead of America by now. Look, we know how bad it is in certain part of America. Sometimes ago, a girl hit my car when I was driving my way from Houston to Austin. She didn't have a license because she was only 15. She begged that I shouldn't tell it to her brother-in-law -- she was already married. I felt so bad at the time. It was a small dent and I didn't report to police.

Marriage at the small age, domestic violence, lack of enough female students at good colleges, less wage than their male colleagues, no political representation at all at the highest level, forceful enslavement and forced sexual labor are as much an American story as it is Nepali story. Just like Moslem women protect the burqa system when talking with us, American women too want to feel they are in good shape. As Emma Goldman, an eminent American women activist would have said, American women need to first look at their position in their own home before practicing complacency. After all, let's remember, How many years after the male got their voting rights did women here got the voting rights?

Issac: why Hindu patriarchal system? Isn’t what you have stated true more of the Brahminical view of the world, with its own twisted interpretation of Hinduism, which represents the Brahmin male not only as the highest form of existence, but also the umbilical cord to the divine? Surely being mullahed once is enough for anyone.

Isaac, So what is nepali culture again? That it is patriarchal, you say. What does that exactly mean? That every family is headed by a man? or that most families are headed by men?
you make a very sweeping generalization and I get a feeling you are basically saying that males hold all the power and the implication is pointedly that all nepali families and the culture itself is patriarchal. Go to an average muslim country and you will see women clad from head to toe, where they are not even allowed to show anything or voice anything. Go to nepal, you will not see this. as a matter of fact, ppl will be shocked if that were to occur. I feel there's a warp between your reality and the true reality. When does having a certain race, make you that much more understanding. Someone could be white and understand your asian heritage better than you! Or understand even our nepali culture better but unless you have seen and experienced it themselves, reading about it on paper and Wikipedia (which I am sure you have already done or some form of it) doesn't count to much. It has to be shown that you understand it better. You cannot claim this yourself and expect anyone to just go along with that idea. There were cases of "sati" before but that's been illegal for a hundred and more years.

Also, going about this case as a sort of Women's liberation movement is wrong. What is the crime? What is the punishment? Did the crime really occur? Lay down the verdict if it occurred. The people involved could be two guys, two girls, guy and girl, girl and guy, asian, american, south asian, african, european and any other combination. Trying to look back at history and using your pseudo-intellect to understand an issue (without leaving any doubt too) is not anyone's job in this case. we are not writing a sociology paper here. the job is to get a better picture of the Crime itself and the evidence and decide.
We have a saying in nepali "goo lai dherai chalaayo bhane, chhitta oodchha" >>>"if you poke s*** around, it gets all over you" and i am getting that feeling talking about this case. On hindsight, maybe we should have just left it alone and just accepted the judge's decision. For who is this guy? I don't know him nor want to have anything to do with him now (even if he's innocent in this case). There is no smoke without some fire definitely.

I suppose most of us are babbling here just to see if justice has been served fairly. Oh well, time to get a nice shower and rub s*** off. Peace.

I want people to read this news:

http://www.nepalnews.com/main/index.php/news-archive/19-general/409-three-nepalis-jailed-in-uk-for-manslaughter-violent-disorder.html

and compare 70-250 years sentence to Ajay. (I understand that the verdict of jury means Ajay may get 70-250 years in jail, but judge decides about it.)

Here are my thoughts:

1. Which crime is more severe? Can we even compare crimes?

2. Is UK soft on crime or is US tough on crime? Is US now a safer place? What is the fundamental difference in UK and USA that results in such a difference in crime? Would american jury member who sat on Ajay's jury have given similar sentence to those men in that crime?

3. Why is there are about 700 per 1 00 000 people in jail in USA while 100+ in the rest of the world? Are americans more criminals? Are american juries tougher?

Again, I asked the readers to READ what I wrote CAREFULLY.  My problem is NOT with Hinduism, but rather with the PATRIARCHAL ASPECTS OF HINDUISM--THE PATRIARCHAL ASPECTS IN MANY CULTURES AROUND THE WORLD.  Nepal is inching along with the rest of the world when it comes to equality for all, especially womens rights.  Where are your facts, your data, your statistics, Pire??  You forget to mention that, despite our President being a male, we work under a democracy, where everyone regardless of color, creed, or sex is allowed to vote.  We CHOSE our President, not because he's a man, or because he's Black, but because we felt that he is what our country needs--a fresh mind with a progressive attitude.  Hilary Clinton wasn't too far behind in the primary election, and yet she still has one of the most powerful positions in our nation.  I would say that this is pretty darn progressive. 

Do you mean to tell me, Sidster, that the Nepali culture does not work under a patriarchal society?  That the term most scholars would use to describe Nepal is "egalitarian"?  Because, all the textbooks that I've looked at, and Womens and Gender Studies students I've talked to, and Nepali people I've conversed with have told me otherwise.  Good for you to have chosen a novel way of thinking, but you can't change the underlying foundation of a hundreds-year-old civilization with some New-Age ideals. 

And Pire, I never said that Hinduism condones violence on women.  I merely stated the fact that, in patriarchal societies, there is a grave disparity between the rights of the patriarch (male) and the females who live under the law of the land.  This PATRIARCHAL IDEAL is what causes the oppression of women, and NOT HINDUISM.  PLEASE READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHEND WHAT I AM SAYING.

  And as for the Brahminical view... Doesn't the Nepali culture believe in a hierarchical caste, one where the Dalits are the lowest of the low, and are treated very poorly?  I don't know that I would want to be a part of this way of thinking...

And, no, I was not one of the jurors, so please stop asking.  I know the victim of the case too well to be one of the jurors.  I thought that you would have picked up on that immediately when I said that I was a friend of hers.  Jurors who have any knowledge of the case that they are being selected for are not allowed to be a part of the panel.  Perhaps you would have known this if you knew more about America and the way our judicial system works.

As for deviance in societies--this did not come out of the "West," as you put it, but out of every culture, every country there is in this world.  There are individuals, such as Ajay, who refuse to acknowledge morals and ethics set down by a greater population, whether it be from some mental disability or psychological problem.  This is not cultural in nature, but rather simple deviance--almost in the way we see mutations along an evolutionary trail.  I am not bashing the Nepali culture or the country, but I am bashing the patriarchal system that has been engrained in this civilization and many others for ages.